8659	Forums / Theology Forum / Contempative Meditation	on: August 09, 2006, 06:17:51 AM
We are so tied to Christ that unless we identify with Him and see His life as our life we will be most miserable. Just being with the Great Shepperd is enough to have a revived soul. When we go to Him in prayer we are so revived that we feel like rejoicing all day long. We feel the soft tunes of heavenly music. We hear millions and millions of people singing hymns as if they were standing around the throne of God all in unison and we feel to the deepest part of our innermost being waves of the Spirits sweetness come over our souls. We are so revived that we want nothing but Him. We are so enraptured in Him that all the joys on this earth we receive from things and people can not compare with the Spirits infusions of revival. We sense His presence swallow up all the earthly noise so that we long for heaven, weep on the inside for this state of joy and envision Him enrapturing us beyond any thing we could think. That newness of infused restoration is always available to us when we draw near to Him. He is a Shepherd who calls us to prayer and then gives us glimpses of what it is like to be revived ,as if we were there with Him in heaven.Contemplative Even when we are confronted with trials He lifts us up above them in His hands and displays His power to those around us by sustaining us, destroying our enemies, and shows the world that everything we have is given to us by Him, He hold us in His arms as He speaks powerful words in the worlds ears , saying to them "this is my child. He is my cherished one , I give Him my best, and He does nothing to earn it. My child is without power to over come you but because I love Him and i being His Shepard you will not lay a hand on Him. My child is precious to me. You may see him stumble, and sin but I have forgiven Him and I have not forgiven you so it does no good for you to blame my child. He is in my house." I will show you by my childs helplessness just how gracious I am.  Not only has our Shepard shown the world just how exalted His sheep are, but He has given His sheep a profound evidence of that care. He not only has shown the world by presenting His sheep to them in loving His own but He has given His sheep a great assurance that they can rely on Him in the presence of the world. Yes He has pour out His Spirit beyond measure, He has given us the Spirit so that out of us flows rivers of living water. We have been given joy unspeakable and full of glory. We are lifted up in power beyond our ability to grasp that power. This baptism of the Spirit is not only over our souls but it is in the training of our bodies. The Spirit infuses life into our bodies and causes us to have acts of trust, strength , ability beyond the normal. He is so in control of every part of our being that any exercise of physical strength is given or subtracted by His Spirit. The Spirit trains our hands for battle and  helps us subdue our enemies. His Spirit gives us specific instructions about a particular circumstance by using the wisdom of the word and He gives us a word of wisdom.  His Spirit gives us a supernatural sense so that we are more aware of what is to transpire in the immediate future by this sense. His Spirit leads us into every circumstance in life to show us just how powerful His is to overcome any trouble. His Spirit goes out in front of us and prepares the way. His Spirit causes us to want and desire the blood thirsty justice of our enemies and at the same time the love of God to be manifested in every space in the universe. His Spirit causes us to desire the end of all things so that Christ will be all in all. His Spirit moves us to act, grants sleep to us, causes us to help others beyond our own abilities, giving us confidence to have more faith in Gods provision rather than our understanding.;His Spirit comes to us in prayer and broads over as we breath out our petitions lusting in us for more of pure words of wisdom so that He can fall on us with infusions of sweet assurance by having us know Christ in all of His person. He teaches us to pray by giving us His prayers in the scripture. He teaches us the wisdom of a petition. He wants us to petition God in such a way that there will be a direct effect from pleading the promises and then He comes and lust for more of our desire. He lust for the sweetness in our desire for more of Christ.

8638	Forums / Theology Forum / Contempative Meditation	on: August 12, 2006, 01:06:13 PM
Isa 19:3.  \"Then the spirit of the Egyptians will be demoralized within them; And I will confound their strategy, So that they will resort to idols and ghosts of the dead And to mediums and spiritists.  Gen. 11:1.  Now the whole earth used the same language and the same words. 6.  The LORD said, \"Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them. 7.  \"Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech.\" 9.  Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of the whole earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of the whole earth. I have been thinking about this whole principle of integration. The paradigm is not in itself evil but what man does with the paradigm makes it evil. Integrating is taking the parts of something and making them a whole or uniting them. There is a philosophy of integration in this country that has blossomed over the years and presently it seems that truth is measured by this paradigm. There is an evil in all of this even tho the intentions are good. Here we have people uniting to build a tower with this principle of integration. Here there are many different jobs to accomplish in building the tower and they all unite to build this thing. Now there is one language so communication is the key to integration it seems to me. All of these parts are put together to in the name of unity. Well it is just what we have in all the areas of our culture here. We have integrated personalities, integrated philanthropy, integrated churches even are the new movement. It has been a long road to get to this towering problem. Here there is a cumulative effect whos evolution starts with denying the existence of God and then there is sort of a power of unity in integration that swallows up many people as if a ship was sinking and the force of the ships descent into the ocean dragged people from the surface. Integration has become sort of a life form. Well it seems that the origins of this philosophy are of mans invention. From the fall man has had this nagging power to deny the existence of God and form a garden Paradise of his own, with his own way of success. It starts with the blindness in mans mind of the reality of his inability to think properly and so man begins to develop integrated processes with the intention of placing himself at the center of his world and in his blindness he builds his own tower so that people unite around him. But really there is a clog in the system of thinking in man and that is that he really starts on the wrong foot and lives in this arrogant deception of cause and effect.  In denying God he basically denies the process of cause and effect. The integrated philosophy is a philosophy of pragmatism. Pragmatism is more than just what works the best,  it is in our culture finding how to produce unity by denying the cause and effect paradigm.

8636	Forums / Theology Forum / Contempative Meditation	on: August 13, 2006, 12:17:46 AM
The integrated culture has  not only evolved from a blindness. There is desperation involved in keeping it fueled. From the beginning man has had a sense of inability, a vast gulf of nothingness as a result of sin. Men are born into trouble and it is how they view that trouble is what becomes the sense they have of their inability. Inability is more than a mental understanding, it is a sense in mans disposition.  The paradigm of inability is the soil of mans vast gulf of nothingness. Its paradigm is on the surface of all of mans being and accomplishments. In this paradigm man experiences a state of emptiness that comes to the surface in the sense of all the air being expelled out of him. Inability is at the root of depression and its identity is not easily identified and understood. This feeling of being unable is as natural as breathing in an expelling air. It is so related to how breaths sensations are involve in the sense perception in man that its effects are instantaneously felt in mans physical makeup in relation to his environment. Because the paradigm of inability carries such weight in the universe of desperation man experiences the effects of instant danger his view of this paradigm is wroth with mystery. The sense of this quandary carries more weight than does his rational process. This is a built in paradigm in man that creates dependence. The depth of the desperation creates the atmosphere for the paradigm of inability which fosters dependence. Its not the his view of the desperation , that is the nature of his inability , that answers much of the mystery of his emptiness, but it is his view of the paradigm of dependence that will answer that deep seated emptiness.

8614	Forums / Theology Forum / Contempative Meditation	on: August 22, 2006, 08:17:52 PM
Let me explain a little more about the psalms and to attest to the power of the written word and the power of the pleading. There was a very ugly series of thoughts that were running through my mind. These were worse than any of the sin that i did today, and they were the spring board for my inordinate anger which was toward God and was mixed with the thoughts of why pray? it does no good, so then in this state of mind the flesh was crying out for control. This was a real struggle and was worse than any sin or lust i did today! It attacked my fervency and made me complacent. It caused me to be in a resignation mode of thinking. The hope of the Spirit was replaced by anger. It was because of the circumstances and it was trying to set into my disposition. The anger was attacking my spiritual wholeness. When i started to meditate in a few psalms i could feel the word dissecting what my spirit had accepted and what the Holy Spirit was saying to me. I went from a state of a lack of awareness as to what was in my heart to a state of deep awareness as to the disposition of my heart. These psalms changed my view of God and my circumstances and it was done in that it penetrated the surface of my heart and pierced the deeps of my heart. When i was done i was in a state of peace and knew that it was a matter of time before God would bring the ultimate assurance of what communication had been to my heart. It was a heavenly , eternal metamorphosis.

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8609  Forums / Main Forum / Take Off The Blindfold on: August 26, 2006, 09:09:04 AM Thanks, you make a very interesting point here. See in the psalms David was extolling the supremacy of Christ the coming redeemer who is and always was in reality the king of the Universe and the controller of all things for to Him and through Him and by Him are all things! Even in Davids time he experienced the absolute conquering of His enemies, and these enemies were not only nations but idolatrous nations at that. And God was pleased to give to David that kind of leadership over the whole world at that time. He was the ultimate world leader. And it was a very simple principle that David thrived on. Because it was acknowledging the Lord ship of the coming king! It was all of grace. Davids obedience did not precede faith but was a result of Gods grace given to him through faith. David had a refuge that demanded nothing to be in that face to face relationship other than Davids leaning on His grace trusting in His grace and living in that grace. David hated his own way! He decried a fleshly attempt to exercise his will over his kingdom. David sought to make God his refuge day and night. He could not come to terms with the reality of that face to face relationship without understanding imputed righteousness. He put no confidence in the flesh. He was a man with all the appetites of a man, yet every inch of his existence was a result of God working through him training him in all of his bodily functions. It wasnt just the wars that God gave to David as a victor it was God actually empowering him to fight those battles. David lived his life in constant prayer, leaning on God for everything,including rest. He sought no legal action against his brothers, but would die before he sought any thing apart from long bouts of prayer. He fought all of his battles in the Spirit before they were obediently waged in life. He thought his thoughts after God. Even in the sin he committed he knew that there was only one place to go to get relief. Even when his family experienced the fallout of his new born life was taken he was confident that his prayer would be answered in-spite of Gods decree, because God does not always carry out his punishment but he always carries out his promises. So because David sought God will all of his might even his wife of adultery was comforted in that decreed discipline. David knew that he could enter the throne room of God apart from his own works and Spirit would enliven his heart by faith as he took refuge in God in prayer. In that grace disposition david was one heart with all of the poor and afflicted and hated the arrogant and scoffers. The more he took refuge in God the more he was humbled to even the lowliest among him even a cripple boy, of whom David rejoice to bring into his house because his heart was so trained by grace that it was not only a good deed but it was a pleasure to him. David was so driven to the depths of despair that he was driven away from his power and his flesh. He had no confidence in his own obedience. He had no confidence in these self righteous people. Look at his wife of sauls family, look at her scoffing at Davids devotion, represented by worshiping God with all of his might, a clear reference to the ultimate refuge and the most profound face to face relationship apart from Christ who transcended all of the oneness of any thing in heaven and earth with our Father. See God was decreeing Davids prayers so that David could hate his own way. In that paradigm David was the ultimate man to find the ultimate refuge in God. David was a man after Gods own heart.

9621  Forums / Theology Forum / Spiritual Depression on: February 16, 2006, 07:33:11 PM What we see with our eyes has a great effect upon what we struggle with in fear. Here is a situation and it is mounting with more difficulty as time goes on. The situation has great effect upon our trust in God as it relates to His abilities, and it causes us much anxiety. There are things that we do to increase this anxiety. We fix our gaze upon the problem in that anxious state and then we begin to increase its power over us. Being in an anxious state is what we must overcome. First of all it our position is that  in anxiety we stand in between the insurmountable problem and the absolute trustworthiness of God. We are captivated in focusing and talking about these insurmountable problems. The reason we focus on the difficulty is because our problem with sin and then there is the problem with how we view ourselves in light of Gods absolute trustworthiness. Behind us is the reminder of Gods deliveries, that is all the past instances where we have been delivered by God. Now this is the art of motivation in struggling with fear and anxiety. Here there are these reminders. What we have as believers is the absolute trust of God and we have the absolute faithfulness of God. He is a God who knows the details of these anxious situations. The scripture declares that we have a refuge. Yet here we are in the situation enamored with the trouble that is staring us in the eye. We are sorta under its spell. There are declarations in scripture and then there is an intimate knowledge of these promises that must be ingested. This process of ingesting is a learned process.It is a two headed process. One is its illumination into the mind, and the sweetness of its discovery. Two is its illuminated application in the disposition we are in at the present existence in our world. It is applied by illumination. Existing in a disposition of anxiety has forces that are beyond our ability to overcome in that illumination process of ingesting the word. This is the reality so that  we are motivated to apply the illumination in a disposition of pain. Why would it be a trial if the insurmountable difficulties were visible to us without the inward struggle. If it did not effect us inside it would not be a trial. The anxious spells strength drives us away from that sweetness of the illumination to focus only on the source of the illumination. Its as if we are enamored with the words ability to enliven us. Then we are under the spell of the trial and that enamored illuminated spell is broken and we in our desperation are driven from the concept of the illuminations power over us to focus on the word\" I am the God of refuge.\" In the desperation of the spell we desperately cast ourselves upon the sure word and not the ability of the word to illuminate us. There is this transference of anxious spell in that process of meditation on these abilities in God. Yet there is a war of holding on to that spell of anxiety. Its as if it is being pried from us and yet going through the process of hoping in His word creates its own illumination. That new illumination is not understood in our most desperate times. Its only after we have overcome that we understand its ability to go beyond the surface of our former trust and in that pain- word process it becomes sweeter than pre- pain illumination.

8725	Forums / Theology Forum / Sin Vs Hypocricy	on: July 28, 2006, 03:59:59 PM
I agree that we must see ourselves as completely righteous in Christ. But really that is not the end of our viewing of ourselves as long as we are on this earth. Sometimes we ignore the reality of sin and try to focus on Christ so that we are in a greater inward battle trying to ignore the reality of sin and viewing ourselves as righteous but really not living with a true sense of the greatness of Christ. We fall into this trap out of fear brought on by ignoring our failure because we must have a good self image in order to understand the power of Christ in our lives. So we delude ourselves by this philosophy of willing ourselves righteous in Christ. This inward battle is putting us in a passive position so that we have more of a mixture of self will worship rather than real Christ centered worship. Our view of God is really the problem here. We create a god in which his holiness is just viewed as moral rather than the essence of all of His attributes. What we do is we think that God must have a completely righteous person in order for us to be an acceptable sacrifice in worship. We delude ourselves by thinking that we must view ourselves completely righteousness in order for us to feel accepted by Him in our worship. God is not viewing us from a position of moral equality where He will not visit us until be get everything rite. So that the end of His holiness is viewing ourselves as completely righteous. The end of His holiness in visiting us is so that we will see ourselves as unable in ourselves to get it rite. When He visits us in worship our reaction to His holiness is not predominately guilt but an awe at the greatness of God in Himself. We are overcome with a sense of His greatness, that is His glory so that when we are confronted with that sense of His holiness we are brought to the end of our viewing ourselves as able or good or having the attitude that if we try hard enough we will succeed. Unless we get a real sense of His holiness we will not consider His greatness and then we will not understand how the Spirit frees us from our incessant want out of our own ability. Once His presence is felt in a strong way we will feel strong in Him. Once we sense that strength and awesome holiness we will be free to view ourselves as unable in ourselves but completely able in Him. This is the end of becoming free in worship. There is a real sense in which the Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirits that all will be well. That we really have had a carnal appetite that we have tried to fill so that we could feel good about ourselves but it lacked the power of God and a true understanding of His holiness. When He visits us in this way our faith is strengthen, our love is without partiality, and our understanding of Him brings us to a confidence that is supernatural. We will see how far down sometimes we must go in order for Him in visiting us with this holiness, to show us the extent of the potential in the power of God witnessed to us by the Spirit.This is the end of His holiness.

8975	Forums / Theology Forum / Is Theology Your God?	on: June 07, 2006, 04:25:39 AM
8663  Forums / Break Room / Angels Unawares on: August 07, 2006, 04:28:26 AM Quote I have had experiences where i have been in prayer and meditation and some weeping and had a sense of my heart being drawn out in worship. Sorta a desperation of circumstances led me to have deep cries in the Psalms which led to more desperation in the Spirit. Many times the Lord has designed circumstances in my life to drive me into deep cries from the heart. Then in much prayer and cries there is a sense of a direct relief , a stillness of the atmosphere, a peace beyond the normal , and then there is an awareness of answers coming. As if i had broken through, then there is an awe that comes in the room  as if there were a breeze of air and a sense that there are angels close a hand. There is in my mind a coming together of this confidence of an answer to my prayer, and an impression in a sense that heavens beings are sent to be a comfort by protecting and assuring me in such peaceful and sweet  impressions that my desperation has been lifted and i am still, and in awe. Then these prayers are answered in the coming months. (If i could identify all the answers) but usually there is a still small impression that overtakes me as these answers come as if someone had been there speaking to me and saying see, i heard your cries and i have come to answer them. Of which i begin to praise God with all of my heart. I have never seen an angel but my heart has been drawn out through meditating in the psalms to such an extent that i was impressed by and inward impression that an angel was near.

8973	Forums / Main Forum / I Love You?	on: June 07, 2006, 09:31:27 PM
I think Jen has a point. There is a difference between being close to someone on the internet and being close to someone in real life. Even men and women  who meet on the internet for building a relationship get to a point where they want to up the closeness and so they schedule a planned meeting. I was thinking about how this would apply about just reading the scripture and where the mystery is say in who the apostle Paul is as in comparison to being in his presence and developing a relationship with him. So maybe it really isnt about the apostle Paul and that necessity of fulfillment by communicating in person. Could the fact that we do not know the author of Hebrews be a statement about focusing on Christ and not the author? So really the encouragement is in knowing that they were only men yet persevered to the end. Then there is the hope of one day meeting some of the great saints in heaven. Granted we will be fully human growing in knowledge as Christ throughout eternity. So there still will be that human element in in glory with this satisfaction. Yet we have our world, our local churches, the people we rub shoulders with every week and sometimes more often. Then there is the giving of oneself in all of this satisfaction in flesh and blood relationships.  Yea, maybe the net fulfills certain itches such as writing something from the heart and then feeling good about that , yet the net only scratches certain itches. Oh well i am tired and am sick.

8968	Forums / Main Forum / Interpersonal Communications	on: June 08, 2006, 12:44:28 PM
Perception or understanding has a lot to do with the desire in a person.  We have a desire to sin from birth, and it is natural to our understanding. Having a desire to sin brings us to choose sin because in our understanding of the object or perception of a system of beliefs we are informed in our understanding based on that bias. Sin is really the chief reason that our perception of anything is drawn from the irrational. And just because we rationally know that it is wrong to perceive something in a moral sense we still choose to do wrong in-spite of our rational abilities. So sin does have a greater effect on our perception than our thinking abilities. Yet our past experience plays an important part in how we understand these life challenges. Because we are people who have passions, and we are physical beings who have senses we collect memories that are felt deeply that have an effect on our understanding or perception. We develop habits based upon our past experiences. All of these experiences either give us pleasure or pain and so we avoid the pain and naturally are attracted to the pleasure even tho the pleasure is wrong. And that gets back to our real bad habit which is sin. We naturally in our past experience love the pleasure of sin even tho we rationally know it is wrong and so we develop habits based upon our love with the pleasure of sin. Sin really has a dominating effect on our desires. When we avoid pain we become irrational in our thinking and we teach our understanding to perceive wrong. So our struggle with sin is the number one problem with our perceiving these things and then our past experience has an effect but does not actually make desire for sin a greater desire than the desire to do good. Our past experience affects our understanding but sin is the well that tips the scales. If we think that past experience plays the major role in our perception then we pragmatic. We are actually giving more power to past experience than the power of sin in us.

8950	Forums / Main Forum / The Crisis Of A Christless Christianity	on: June 11, 2006, 12:47:13 PM
updated ....I changed my views on man in the garden. The garden was not really a test but a creation of God that provided for mans needs. God created all things and gave them to man that matched his nature of governing all things by the implanted law. There was no tension. Man pronounced the names of all of Gods creation which perfectly described the image of those things. In making the images that were pleasing to God as man created those images, he enjoyed unopposed desire. Man ruled by law perfectly. me       Quote MBG I thought you brought up some very good points!  And Tom I thought you addressed them very well too.  I think you really bring the gospel of Jesus into the art of interpersonal communications--Thank you. I'd like to offer something to think about.  I think my first real grasp of this was when my husband and kids and I did a Bible study in Genesis.  My husband has a very keen ability to look at the Lord in a very practical manner--easy to understand. He was talking to our kids about how God had angels to worship Him, so why did he create us anyway?  For fellowship.  He created us in His image that He gave freewill to choose to fellowship with Him or to not.  I won't go into the whole discussion here, but you get the idea.   So God is a God of communication!  Fellowshipping is communicating.  God created all the animals, but yet He also said in Gen 2:18 The Lord God said "It's not good for man to be alone.  I will make a helper suitable for him."  So there again, God made someone for Adam to communicate with on his own level.  Eve walked in the flesh of the body just like Adam did, so they could relate to one another through similar eyes. (well okay, sometimes very far apart...LOL) God also walked and talked in the cool of the day with Adam and Eve.  What an awesome picture that draws, the COOL of the day, that could be morning or evening.  To me, dusk and dawn are two of the most beautiful times of day. I get the picture that it was dusk because Adam and Eve had already had their day of temptation and eating the apple, then it says - Genesis 3:8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. I just think that draws such an awe inspiring picture of walking and talking and fellowshipping with the Lord God.  How awesome that must have been and I wonder if he was in a physical form since they HEARD him "walking"?  I guess that is something we will know once we get to heaven.  Just that verse alone though, communicates a lot to me about the fellowship God had with Adam and Eve and what He wants with us.  I like to draw mental pictures and I can just see the beautiful garden and in the cool of the day.  When you are done with your work (I picture Adam tending to the garden and animals) and God says--"so how was your day"  AWESOME! The Bible also says that His creation speaks loudly of Him, so there again He is communicating to us through that means.   And boy is it a beautiful, complicated, yet simple and changing means.  Seasons, the sun, the moon, the stars.  The complexity of the working body, trees, flowers, bees and animals and regeneration of life.  I could go on and on!  The mountains, the ocean, a beautiful little baby!  So many many things.  It all speaks of HIM! And God being that Creator, I mean we all know that, but I hadn't quite looked at it as that is why we all like to create things too.  And we do speak through our creations of art, music and so on.  When God created something He said it was good or in some places VERY GOOD.  So being made in His image we do love the things we make and create and communicate through--we too like to say that is good or very good. So I really do see communication as a very integral part of the Christian walk. So keep going Tom!  And I'm most anxious to learn about listening skills too.  You might have posted that already I haven't had time to read yet tonight. Good Points G2H. There are a few points i want to make about the creation of man in the garden. First , it is thought after a study of the account of creation that Satan or Lucifer who was created as the most beautiful angel and the highest ranking angel , was created at the time of the creation of the earth. His domain was in the garden of Eden in that creation and after God had created everything including man he pronounced everything good. In between God pronouncing everything that He had made good and his fall from heaven and his appearance in the garden as a serpent we short in time lapse. Gods ultimate purpose in creating all things is to bring glory to Himself. When he put man in the garden God had a purpose in the garden for man. He gave man a test. Man was under tension because man had to keep the law perfectly in order for man to earn eternal life. This was the covenant of works and God had  a purpose in the garden that was not going to be thwarted, that is all Gods purposes in creation are to bring glory to Himself. God has an ultimate purpose as well as His purpose in the garden. His ultimate purpose is that He is the end of all things what He makes and what he accomplishes in the creation of all things is only good. So God designed it so that man would fall to bring glory to Himself in the sending of His Son so that all the communicated qualities after the garden would be better than the in the garden , being fulfilled in Christ. Man actually had a short test in the garden as well as Lucifer. Man failed to earn righteousness and when He sinned he failed the test. The relationship of fellowship with God in the garden had a tension in it. Actually we have a greater capacity to enjoy fellowship with God than Adam did. The Father sent the Son into the world to fulfill all righteousness and the Son obeyed the law completely both passively and actively. Christ did what adam failed to do. He lived a perfect life on this earth , died for sin , and now is in heaven as our High Priest interceeding for us. When we are saved we get His righteousness imputed to us, and our sin was  imputed to Him on the cross. We are able to go to the Father any time and with great confidence. Because we have the righteousness of Christ we are accepted by grace, it is free access. Adam had to earn his righteousness. Oh what a mystery of love. God actually gets more glory in our situation in this fallen world by displaying a greater love, a greater power, a greater Man than the first man Adam!

8949	Forums / Main Forum / The Crisis Of A Christless Christianity	on: June 11, 2006, 01:05:12 PM
Quote Philosophy is dangerous to the way we think if we are not putting it up in the lens of the word of God. Philosophy in itself is not evil, but the problem is when we are exposed to it we can be deceived very easily. All of us are natural doubters of the absolute supernatural abilities in God in the providence sense. Because of sin we naturally want to worship a god of our own making. Calvin says we are little god makers. We fashion a god from our own experience and knowledge. In this society the amount of time we spend in meditation on the word of God and prayer does not equal the time we are exposed to American philosophy. Basically it is if it works then it is the truth. We naturally do not like to be exposed to absolute truth that challenges our way of thinking. We would rather find out what works and then it will fashion our way of thinking. We also do not like to wait on answers for our problems. Our motto is God has done His part now He is waiting for you to do yours. In other words find out what works and do it in a practical way. In other words dont worry about thinking or examining the whole scope of absolute truth but get a simple explanation so that you can begin implementing it into your daily routine. Get a plan that tells you what to do and then do it. The bible offers an exclusive pattern for finding truth as well as defining what truth is. The bible is the revelation of God and stands apart from any other written book. The defense of the bible is its ability to work where ever it is read and taught. The bible is not an empty waste of time from being exposed to it nor does the activity of its Spirit filled words need to wait on us to do something for it to be active in our lives. It meets every need at every second of our life on this earth. It contains all we need for life and godliness. The bible is a pathway to a relationship with Jesus Christ. If you want Christ to speak directly to you then it must be through the words of scripture. Philosophy offers a system of pragmatism, the bible shows a person who he is, explaining in detail what he needs and what he is given in Christ and then works to renew all of these promises and heavenly glories in that person. It is an active word. There is also a spirit of philosophy. The spirit of philosophy tends to be dry, and it is aerated in a way that gives a person a temporary hope but does not satisfy the deepest longings of the soul. It focuses on behavior with guilt as its over all drive. It almost never grabs a persons spiritual desires but only influences a persons conscience helping a person feel good by relieving a trouble conscience but hardly ever getting to the desires of a persons inmost being. The spirit of philosophy is the driving force for all systems of man. It makes people extremely active in their minds by a superficial set of standards that are well defined and can be kept. That spirit brings about self righteousness. It is a spirit that desires self flagellation, self grandiose, and self discovery. It is a spirit that locks a person into its mold by offering a premise and then describing the solution. In this spirit is this circular way of thinking. This spirit is a heavy weight of self deception because the person hardly ever experiences desire driven theological transformation by direct application of the Holy Spirit on the heart through renewal. The Holy Spirit is spiritual desire driven.

8932	Forums / Theology Forum / Is Theology Your God?	on: June 19, 2006, 04:47:00 PM
See our problem is us. Its the way we think, the bent we have to believe in our corruption and that disposition of insane loves that causes us to lose heart and succumb to this numbness. We vacillate between trusting in our ability to accomplish our own righteousness, and the utter feeling of helplessness in having a deep longing for Gods presence because we embrace idol tendencies, fearful worries, self confident desires, and a deceptive self awareness that infects all of our relationships. We are self protective, overly self conscious, and selfishly independent. In this state we are very receptive to idols. We fear the very thing we worship, we long for the very thing that causes us to be self deceived, we trust in the very person who is finite, and we live in this state of self awareness insecurity thinking that this is a normal generated social identification that makes a necessary function of acceptance by others.  The truth is we are finite beings whose existence is given to us by God who always existed. We live and move and have our being in God. The  beginning of us was minded by God before before we existed. We are dependent on God outside of time for our existence in time. And yet all things have their origin from God and are moved by God , by having their end purpose already determined in eternity. What we experience in time is already determined before time at the moment we experience it and so it is ordered by God who does everything perfect. There really is no self determined existence in the creature. We are swallowed up in the beauty of all of Gods purposes and we as believers are able to experience the pleasure of that glory of God. We make things so difficult by thinking so irrationally.

8924	Forums / Main Forum / Cheap Grace?	on: June 21, 2006, 10:03:41 PM
Quote As coincidence would have it, I'm listening to Kirk Cameron preach on this very thing. It's a little long, but is well worth it for those of you who don't believe Acts 17:30-31, which, at the moment, appears to be all of you. I agree that we need to have repentance as a prerequisite. Now what we need to do is to explain the message to a person and it entails a different approach to each individual and with a different emphasis of these truths in relation to the persons disposition and whether they are acknowledging they are sinners. I dont believe the focus is on the words we say but on the kind of relationship and the praying we do for those who are unsaved in our world. The clinical approach as a system for conviction of sin is a wrong focus. God does the saving in-spite of how cute our message is. We are to be in love with God so much that when the message is given there is a spiritual renewal effect in the air. We are to follow the Holy Spirit in our communication with the unsaved and give them what they need as well as calling for a change in the life. There is a history of this kinda lawyer type message, that is explaining the gospel in a sorta dry, doctrinal focus on the way we present the message so that we can confront a person with their sin and get an effect from them. We are to be in front of those who are not. We are to have such a heated passion for the things of God that there is a supernatural effect in who we are around others. This can only be accomplished in much meditation and prayer.

8917  Forums / Main Forum / Cheap Grace? on: June 23, 2006, 10:32:57 PM I have been thinking about the cause and effect paradigm in all logical thinking. As the cause is so is the effect. The effect has the essence of the cause in it. So the closer we get to the effect the stronger will be the cause. The greater distance from the cause the weaker the the effect. Now Here in this verse in Pauls letters about working out your own salvation because it is God who works in you is more of this cause and effect relationship than a 50-50 relationship. It is not Gods done his part and now its your job to finish it. In our day and age we hear this proposal constantly. There is a misunderstanding of this cause and effect relationship that this verse is puts forth here. In our modern day thinking when we say that there is this 50-50 relationship here in this verse we are saying that there is an abiding truth outside of the realm of theology where man is represented here as doing something to achieve the ends that God wants him to accomplish. This doing something is represented as strictly mans action and Gods reaction. Or Gods commands and mans obedience.  In other words what we have in the 50-50 is man is all action and God is all command. This verse is not teaching this philosophy. This verse does not define man this way. Obviously the closer you get to the cause the more the cause will define who you are, and the farther away you get from the cause the more you will define who you are. This is what the verse is depicting here in God working in you. In a 50-50 relationship what is equal is your will and Gods will working in unison. When we define us having a self determined will we are saying that we have just as much rite for us to define who we are as people as God does.What we are saying is that we can have a philosophy of 50 -50 about ourselves that is equal to the theology taught here in this cause and effect relationship. The whole universe is a cause and effect universe because God created the universe and in that creation is the explanation of the cause. God defines who He is by the creation. And yet there are also characteristics within the physical aspects of creation that are in the cause and effect paradigm in the universe. In how the universe functions is included in the cause and effect paradigm. All the moral decisions in the universe are a part of the cause and effect paradigm in all of those things that run the physical parts of the universe, including mans decisions. To say that there is no cause and effect the moment time started in all of the moments of time both physical and non physical is to just create an irrational paradigm of existence. A self determined will has no cause since it is neutral not desiring good or evil. To will is to desire one thing over another, to be undetermined about the choice of two equal objects presupposes no cause in the supposed self determined will. In this 50 -50 view of this verse there really is no cause in the choice and so there really is no understanding of the effect or real experience in effects but rather a rationalization , and an illogical determination of who God is and our relationship to Him. The logical cause and effect is that God cause all things to work together for good for those who love Him. In our working he is the cause of our working and He is in the effect of our working. The closer we get to the cause the more we are going to work in line with His design and the farther we get from the cause the less we will be in line with His will. We must see that there is a cause in the universe and there is a cause in our choices. We desire one thing over another because one desire is stronger than the other and the reason is because there is a cause for our choice to desire one thing over another. Our new life in us is the cause. The more we experience God presence in His word the more we will choose by cause the good and work out our salvation.

9035  Forums / Main Forum / Can You Explain This on: May 20, 2006, 07:44:27 PM Quote I agree...except... James or Ya'aqov (Jacob) was just saying that if you are born again your actions and life shows it. If you are guided by the Spirit then your life shows it. If you are unsaved and living in the flesh your life shows it, because, you are eather, unsaved, or saved, living in a state of sin...and need to be eather saved, or need repentance and confession. Living under the Law does not mean, not obeying the Law , it means not using righteousness attained from obedience to the Law as a means of attaining salvation . -the Galatian mistake! The Law “had been” (past tense) the way to righteousness and salvation, if approach by faith in Yahweh, but with the coming of the Messiah , a new way of “righteousness to salvation” was given by God through “faith in Jesus’ death and resurrection”. The use of the "law/faith" for salvation to eternal life was no more! The use of the "Law/faith" as a guide for your walk with God was still in place. How can you know Godly behavior and un-Godly behavior if you wipe out God’s/Jesus’ teaching (Law/Torah)?   ...you can't!  The Holy Spirit has to reference to something, beside your feelings or imagination! Taking a total antimonial position or a partial antimonial position ignores the fact that the gentiles were given fewer requirements than the Jewish believers (Acts15). The Torah was not set aside for the Jewish Church because the gentiles didn't have to be circumcised! However, the idea that the gentiles were now the new Israel encouraged the false doctrine of dividing the Law into Moral, civil and ceremonial Law (Justin Martyr 150 AD) so it could be dissected without apprehension  or guilt for turning away from their Jewish brethren. All this has added greatly to the present confusion today in the Church and suggests why the same questions about salavtion, Law and works come up over and over again! Thor Thanks Thor-There is a disagreement with you last post that i have, thanks for responding tho. When we talk about the work of the Holy Spirit and obedience we are being exclusive in the scriptural way of obeying. We are making a statement about mans work and Gods work in man. Mans way is to believe that all he needs to do is to take the word of God and trust in it alone as and intellectual assent. That is to tell a person if you pray this prayer for Jesus to come into your heart then he will come in. In other words you just take the word and then you intellectually agree and you are saved. This is mans attempt at obeying. This leads to man centered theology of which we have in the usa. We believe that the word and the Holy Spirit work in salvation and sanctification to effect the change. Its not just pray a prayer. It is believing in the heart as roms. says. That is the focus of that if you believe in you heart and confess with you mouth. The point is those who have the whole heart effected will confess with their mouths continually. Believing is not just intellectual but it is emotional, a felt aspect in which the Spirit witnesses with our spirit through the word of God that we are His. That is a knowledge that is new and spiritual, and has spiritual senses involved, taste touch, hear. The height of desire will show the level of the faith in a person. The more high desire the more growth. We are not to wait for a special motion of the Holy Spirit to obey, but we are to be inflamed with desire from the Spirit and the word in order to obey. Look at the W- Confession. This is not Antinomianism. An Antinomian does not believe that the law applies to him. He only believes in grace and a so called relationship in Christ that is undefined. But Antinomianism also is a pick and choose theology. An Antinomian picks the parts of the scripture he agrees with and discards those parts that do not fit his philosophy. Here is an example. This is what is so prevalent today. People call real Calvinist Antinomians because Calvinism is so watered down today that they can not distinguish between what is true and what is false. Yet Calvinist accept the absolute sovereignty of God as in Eph. 1. So really Calvinist are biblicist in the sense that they have come to terms with God having all the rites as God. Yet the very people who claim that Calvinism is Antinomian are the people who themselves are Antinomian They are the people who cannot submit to portions of scripture because they have a warped view of God and then that will translate into a warped view of the law. So really semi plagenist go in and out of Antinomianism. The will give a pass to anyone who cannot stomach the absolute sovereignty of God and allow that false view of God to be practice in the christian world. They believe that the truth does not apply to them even tho the scriptures are clear. So they focus on the outward observance of the law and ignore important doctrines that focus on the heart of the individual. Then they give every one who agrees with them a pass on not submitting to portions of scripture. That my friend is Antinomianism! This absolute sovereignty is so important that you will never understand the true nature of the law in a rational way and the true nature of grace in a rational way.

9014	Forums / Theology Forum / Change, "by God?"	on: May 28, 2006, 08:39:07 AM
Quote Dipping or whatever is simply behavior. Not all behaviors are sinful...and in another context all behaviors CAN be sinful. Both Jesus and Paul said it's the heart that matters: I could not agree more. It is the heart that matters. What I am saying is that we are obligated to live as clean a life as possible. And since we are using my dipping as the example. The reason that I am quitting is because I am convicted of it. I am not saying all that dip and smoke are sinners. I am also not saying that because I am quitting, it is right for everyone else to quit also. What I am saying is we as Christian, quite often pass the buck. We use Jesus as an excuse saying, "I cant quit until he gives me power". Now, this is quite true, It is the Lord that gives us the strength. What I think happens is that we (I) use urges and tempting as a reason to do something, saying to myself "the Lord must not have delivered me yet". But in reality, He has. It just takes more effort and willpower on our part. The will power that HE put there. Because it sure does not come from me. Make sense??? Take care Jeff please keep in mind I am using my life and assuming that others run into the same ruts. I am not sure that it is that simple Jeff. I mean we know that appropriation is needed in every area of our lives. Yet some of us struggle with different sins at different times. It is sometimes a mystery as to why we struggle with sins that we have overcome and we dip back into them. The object of growing in sanctification is to become more like Christ and that is becoming holy in all we do. Sin in not necessarily behavioral in an active sense, it is also passive in that we fail to live up to a standard of loving God with all of our hearts and minds. What we consider is our problem usually is a public sin. But God is looking at the private attitudes and the active thought life as more heinous in His sight. Its more than just looking at dipping and trying to stop, that is being held accountable by someone else for that to take place. Its seeing ourselves in the light of Gods word , by exposing ourselves to His word in meditation and prayer, and the other means. Sometimes, the mystery of overcoming sins works in our favor to draw us to a deeper knowledge of God by making us humble so that we trust Him instead of ourselves. We will always sin. In my questioning i was trying to bring out that sin is not just things we do. Sin is like a person, it has a personality, it is present in us and is always moving in us and drawing us to not love God with all of our hearts minds and will. We mortify the deeds of the flesh, that is this nature that has a power in us and is a two fold power in our spirits and bodies. We in ourselves can never wash our feet. Remember that Peter wanted to Christ to wash his entire body. And Christ did that on the cross. When we are in Christ we are being washed and thats why our feet are washed on a daily basis. We do not even understand enough of the depth of our sin to be able to face each sin on a daily basis to be able to wash our feet by confession. As the Psalmist says forgive my hidden faults, so all of the feet washing we go through are by grace and are done in that power of God from the cross, they are within the It is finished. So our unconfessed sin is washed also or we would all be without hope of our Fathers approval. We really do mortify the deeds of the flesh by the Holy Spirit. The amount of sin we concur is really measured by how much we know the word of God, \"sanctify them by the word, thy word is truth\", and what exposure we have to it in consistency. In other words we must increase our fellowship with the Spirit as the single most important principle of over coming sin. Its not necessarily running to men for that help or thinking that we have will power. Maybe latter we can get into the \"self- determined will. I think we make the salvation so simple when we say that we have all of these things available from grace and then all we need to do is appropriate them. The bibles paradigm in this area is the doctrine is given first, and then the commands follow, with the doctrine interspersed into the command teachings. In other words it is what we know which even tho salvation is simple it is also extremely difficult. The process of overcoming sin and the counsel we receive by men sometimes gives us the illusion that the struggle with sin is easy and within a system of steps. But really the insight into the reality of sin and its depth and its power and its connections in us , demands an extended struggle to finally get us to love God. It is in that motif of Christo centric universe that we are aiming at in over coming sin..\"

9003	Forums / Main Forum / Do You Believe In Free Will?	on: June 01, 2006, 04:49:43 AM
First does this passage teach that man is not responsible? No it does not teach that man is not responsible. We need to take all of the scriptures on mans responsibility and Gods sovereignty. This passage is a literal passage, in which we take it literal. We do not try to explain it away. God is absolutely sovereign because He is God. Man is responsible because man chose to sin and  fallen and fell. We are responsible in Adam. The truth is God could have judged Adam the moment he sinned and been just. Then He could have judged all of Adams posterity and been just. But God chose before the creation of the world some people for Himself and sent the rest to hell, because God is God. Unless we acknowledge that His will takes precedence then we make His will subservient to our will and then that makes us all little gods whom God is dependent on us. God is not weak and unable and powerless to save. \"He does what He pleases in heaven and on the earth.\" Ps Man is born in sin with an ability to chose what pleases him most. He can choose for himself and is  fully responsible for choosing what pleases him. But man is spiritually blind because of his state in sin and cannot choose God. He does not see the value in God. He has a conscience and He knows that God requires man to respond to the requirements of the law but man cannot become righteous in himself. Every time man hears the word of God taught or preached he hardens his heart and will not submit or repent. The more man hardens his heart the more he is greasing the wheels for his judgement.  Rom. 1.21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. The only hope is for God to open mans spiritual eyes to see the truth. The Holy Spirit comes in the preaching of the word and turns the light on so that man can see the value of all the spiritual things. When man is regenerated then man can turn to Christ and believe. \"Salvation is by grace through faith and is not of ourselves.\"

9000	Forums / Main Forum / Do You Believe In Free Will?	on: June 01, 2006, 07:23:14 PM
Quote God is absolutely soveriegn because He is God. Man is responsible because man chose to sin and fallen and fell. We are responsible in Adam. If man has the ability to choose to sin and fall he would conversely have the ability to choose to accept Gods fee gift and be saved. Either he has the gift or ability, whatever you like

to choose or he doesn’t. If he can’t choose he is not responsible.
God in his sovereignty is entirely within his rights and power to provide man with choice and free will. It doesn’t impact the status of his sovereignty whatsoever. Converesely if He chooses to put certain people to work or to make an example out of or whatever, He is sovereign and can do what he wants.
This used to confuse me but I’m not sure I know what the hubbub is about anymore. First if God gives man the ability to choose within himself to be saved then the ability is really a choice that God makes prior to man choosing. So there are some who are being judged in hell rite now. You can say that God did not have the absolute control, but in your thinking God chose to give a man free will prior to man having free will and then God chooses to send them to hell in-spite of mans supposed free will. There is not much difference in what you are saying and what i am saying.

If man has a free will to choose salvation then why was he held responsible for the sin which adam committed.The sin was actually imputed by God prior to man having to be responsible in himself in time. So the very opposite of free choice existed in man prior to being responsible in that free choice in the age of accountability. If man is personally responsible then why does he die for someone elses sin? The generation that followed adam did not get to be held personally responsible for the physical death state that they entered. It was chosen for them prior to their birth. Everyone will die no matter how good their personal choices are. I am just using your free will argument to prove that there is some inconsistencies in it.

8997	Forums / Main Forum / Make Every Effort?	on: June 02, 2006, 03:40:16 PM
Quote There are within some christian circles an understanding that there is nothing for believers to do. Its all done. I agree with that with regard to our salvation. Yet it seems there is an expectation of effort to be applied as we go along our way. I think we are expected to study the word, do good works, pray, etc. Below are some examples of the use of the word "effort". Would those verses indicate that while we are empowered to do things by the Holy Spirit, that there seems to be an indication we must make a willful choice to do at least some things? Such as the examples below? 1.   Romans 14:19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 2.    Ephesians 4:3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 3.   Hebrews 12:14 Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 4.   2 Peter 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; Jeffery here is where i think when we get down to the details of the scripture i have a different take as the what our responsibility is and what Gods work in us is or what extent the Holy Spirits function in us is. The bible does not say that we are to try to achieve a level of addition of goodness on our own. The working principle in scripture on sanctification is this. We are made new and are being made new by the Holy Spirit. I kinda think that your theory is that the Holy Spirit does something in us and then we are to do something too and so we cooperate  with the Holy Spirit. There really is no human cooperation in spiritual growth. Our goal is not to be more moral. Instead of cooperation it is dependence. What your side fails to see is that we are made completely righteous by a righteousness that is imputed to our account, and our sinfulness is imputed on Christ. Here it is never our personal decisions that gets us into spiritual growth. It is realizing that Christ met all the requirements of the law in that he was actively obedient and passively obedient and He did what we could never achieve in our decisions. When ever you get to the commands there is this working principle in all of it. We are righteous so that what command we set out to do we never do it according to the standard of Christ. We do the command because we have been given grace to do it. So when we fail to do it properly both in our active obedience and our passive obedience it is not a surprise or is it a complete failure on our part. It is expected that we will fail by our inability to meet the requirements of the command. Thats because we really do not lean on ourselves to achieve a level of spiritual maturity. We only lean on Christ. So in Christ we meet all the requirements of the commands. We are given grace and power to meet them. Tho we fall short , we are not performing to be accepted by God we are already accepted by God even if we fail. Yet because God has graciously given us all of these spiritual qualities that will be the reason we add to our faith. Really you are creating an illusion if you think he is saying now that you have been saved you must get to work. You must cooperate! No No no , you who have been given the Spirit are you now trying to obey the law in the flesh? No no no. Heres the problem with the wrong focus. Here you have a church, and all the people who think they are doing good deeds by performing, making a decision , following the script are given precedence over the brother who is struggling with sin, falling , battling with temptation. In Gods church, the one who is poor in spirit is more righteous than the one who thinks he is cooperating with God. The one who is struggling should be the one who has precedence, and the one who thinks he is cooperating should be warned of self righteousness. Thats Gods paradigm.

9301	Forums / Theology Forum / The Bible Driven Church	on: March 30, 2006, 03:48:42 PM
Were did we get the idea that prayer is a temporary solution.  Were did we get the idea that prayer was only good if it was part of a solution? Where did we get the idea that prayer was the means to change our circumstances. That view has to much fleshly purposing in it. Prayer is the natural outcry of a believer. The desire to Pray is from the Holy Spirit who infuses us with the presence of the divine consciousness an actual fellowship with the Father, an enlightened disposition in the midst of the mundane and painful reality of life. The troubles from within and without that consume us are co existent with our new life in Christ. We are divided in the sense that what we are in ourselves is terribly horrific , and what we posses in grace is extremely supernatural. We live knowing that at any time we could stumble into sin, and fall very hard. There is a war going on inside of us that even tho most of the time is unspoken in the everyday culture of the church nevertheless is common in all christian dispositions. Just because the battle is not explained, described, forced into everyday communication yet the psalmist describes a groaning that is life long and is not easily acknowledged by the best of us. Here in this battle on the inside is where we misapply applications of behavioral therapy in modern human behavioral systems of anthropology. The great deli-ma comes when theology and anthropology are taken out of the context of biblical realm of truth in every day communication. We all share psychosis, troubled relationships, loneliness, rejection, and even those who once loved us as becoming our accusers. These realities are sprung in the heart, the exist in all areas of our souls. These areas are so common in us that there is not a day where we do not experience all of these troubles in one degree or another. Just think about the corruption of the mind, that is a propensity to think about relationships in a way that is slanted to our own benefit, or with some slight intention that is more an imaginative person, whoever we co exist with in our world. We are so susceptible to creating characters of our imagination that we sometimes do not understand who we are in light of our relationships. So we depend on the perceived truth of our peers not realizing that their minds are corrupted also and slanted toward hiding what is corrupted in their minds so they can look like they are wise enough. And yet the bible depicts us all as terribly mistaken in what we think and so dependent on supernatural light of the word that any system that introduces thought patterns that do not expose these inward corruptions in their root is just a spewing of one mans imagination. And yet we all share in emotional desperation that is a disposition of unrest, anxiety, depravity. In this area we are the most corrupted. We run the gambit of emotions every day. Our thoughts are corrupted and our emotions are corrupted, and this is common to all of us. We try to hide how we feel so that we can create an illusion that we in control of ourselves even tho we are either, delusional, numb, full of hate, anxious to the point of bleeding and yet what is going on inside of us is common to every one around us to one extent or another. The truth is we live as corrupted people in a realm that is eternal. We live in the presence of a loving Father who understands all the motives, all the idols, all the peer imaginations, He knows all of the problems, the fortresses we build up to protect our independence from feeling His presence inside of us. He knows that there was a terrible reality that enter our consciousness when sin entered. He must become so real to us that our present consciousness of independence will be so obnoxious to us that no system of man could compare to His revelations of love in us by His word.

9281	Forums / Theology Forum / Is Theology Your God?	on: April 01, 2006, 06:23:54 AM
How can you know God unless you understand who He is by His word, and how can you understand His word unless you understand the propositional truth in His word. The problem here is not the Theology, but the people who miss use the theology. To ask the question Can theology be a God is to ask can God be God? The process of systematic thinking is not idolic in itself. It is in the nature of this thinking process that is antithetical to the nature of the thinking process of man in his fallen state. This process is informing on the thoughts of man and is a reversal of the fallen process of thinking in man whos well spring of truth comes from self- knowledge. There should be an all out determination to consume as much Theology as often as possible for a better transformation of the mind. The problem comes when we mis apply the nature of who God is as to who we are. Here is where we read things into theology,rather than be informed by theology so that it becomes the definition of who we are which will determine what we do. As well as consuming theology we need to practice the art of meditation on the word. There is a duel action in informing who we are in a mystical sense also. If i say that all christian experience ultimately starts from the inside and works it way to the outside then not being able to observe the inside of me by observation, not having the capability, then these inner workings in which scripture centers on must be understood by this two pronged transformation of the mind. If i just focus on meditation, then i will be twisted in the process of informing. If i just focus on theology then it will ultimately be a focus on the outward and will just degenerate into moralism.

9276	Forums / Main Forum / Is Accountability Good	on: April 02, 2006, 09:31:43 AM
Accountability can be good and bad. Think of this, if we are made clean salvation, and we are given all that we need for life and godliness in a personal way then really the focus of our christian life is not what others can inforce apoun us but what kind of submission that we have to Christ in the inward experience. If Christ is our high preist, our mediator, then what can replace Him as a relationship that can compete with our love for Him and our trust in Him. If we are in a relationship of grace in Christ, that is being given grace prior to all acts of obedience, and giving grace to prevent us from straying, in a supernatural way, then that carrot should keep us dependent on Him in prayer and meditation and that same grace to prevent us from sinning should also prevent us from idols, that is placing people in a position of authority that only Christ should have. If there are relationships that have accountability then we need to see the positive aspects and the negative aspects in a discerning way because concentration of behavioral change on the outside as an overall focus, will be a deception for us as to the work of the Spirit, that is, His acting by the word in a continuous, all seeing communication in the sanctifying action on our souls. And in that fellowship the focus is to overcome sin. If we just confess sin to people, then we will not experience all the peace and joy of forgiveness of truly repenting to God alone, and we will not understand what trust in the work of Christ is on our behalf, so that we will have a divided love in our hearts. In a since real accountability partners are facilitators. They can offer advice, or can act as an in-between in a dispute between peoples by opening up lines of communication. But as to keeping someone from sinning, that process is brought about by faith alone, through Christ alone, by grace alone.

9274	Forums / Main Forum / Is Accountability Good	on: April 02, 2006, 02:47:48 PM
Quote Most humans, that would include Christians,  have blind spots. They can't see or accept their own errors or faults that others see so well. Being accountable to someone else can help us deal with personal issues that we have placed on the back burner of our conscientiousness. It all about human interaction and fellowship...helping each other as we go down the road. It takes just as much faith to interact to our fellow man as it does with God. We have to believe that it is good to trust other people who God has seen fit to sprinkle so many upon the earth. Thor Ive thought about this issue a lot and meditated on some of these things you are talking about. First there is a view that control issues that come from these character flaws, that are produced in us by sin, are issues that when identified can be overcome in us and that being through accountability partners. Granted there are blind-spots in all of us and this does tend to translate into anti social- behavior which is just areas of control problems. But i have never seen a person balanced so well that these areas of control do not pop up often. And in fact these areas where these problems exist in all of us are areas that demand more than just identifying them and being controlled by someone else to over come them. There is not one leader in the history of the church that i have read that does not exhibit strengths and weaknesses in their writings and in the bios i have read. It is impossible to get rid of the chaff. Control is not just dealt with in the realization that God is sovereign and has everything in control so we do not need to be obsessed with these areas of control. To reason that realizing that we are not in control by thinking that God is in control will only make us followers, and having no expectations for change. We have the word and the Spirit, then we have other people, yet if anyone who is  married will see that control issues are never over come. They are managed. The truth is that as we grow in Christ by these means the control we have will be overcome by the supernatural control in the sense that we are in control of our will but the desires will more an more be eternal. The control of the Holy Spirit in this growth sense will give way from our control to a reality of experiencing His control over a long period of time. That is what overcomes these blind spots. Its super-naturalism to the core!

9273	Forums / Main Forum / Is Accountability Good	on: April 02, 2006, 05:20:50 PM
In the area of the soul and desire and the Holy Spirit and control. The soul (us )after the fall in a conscious level entered into an adversarial state. Pryor to the fall there was perfect unity at the conscious level of life. By adversarial i mean in a relational way. The very nature of the origin of this adversarial state is control. As believers we have given control over to Christ. Yet the will being new is still corrupted. And the will of God and our will are not separated in our acting. Our will is not sin in itself, nor is it the Spirits will apart from our will in the act. Granted that our side of the will is corrupted and the Christ side so to speak is the only spiritual good. Yet when we act it is us acting. We are still in an adversarial state as believers in this world. We still will for control in the germ of our acting. Look in gen. where sin desires to control us but we must control it. So desiring control is not wrong. Nor is it wrong to exercise control over others. The nature of our initial desire is for control. As a believer our wills are new and so what we will is what is Gods will, yet it is corrupted coming from us. The whole human struggle starts in this germ of control. We are in a moment by moment struggle for control. That is not necessarily wrong. In fact much of our spiritual growing is rooted in the gaining of control at the very heart of the will. got to rite later.