6249	Forums / Main Forum / Re: Does God\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\	on: June 15, 2008, 02:30:45 PM
Quote from: squalltorpedo on June 15, 2008, 11:23:23 AM Hey MBG....just....tie.... it....a little tighter.....ahhhh that's it! So, while the noose is around my neck under "your' yoke of control, what was it you were whining about??  :  ))  but I do completely feel you are free to disagree with us.....  You're an intelligent guy, (even look great too)....but can you explain how what's been said sounds political??  The 2 issues work synergistically,  God's Grace produces fruit and works in us just as Paul, James, and Jesus reinforce that it does. The pre-requisite is God and His gift of Grace to whom He chooses....Grace over time causes an increase of faith and obedience,  faith and obedience pleases God does it not??  Never have I ever stated that Works are the basis of grace, quite the opposite.  Yet, one's attitude about sin (ie the struggle),  as well as the fruit (what God causes as growth in us)  over time does in fact shed light on what's actually taken place, in the first place. No one is ever free of sin, but nobody is ever as bad as they could be either.  I just believe that God does in fact convict us of sin, and find it very hard to scripturally understand how someone could claim to be a Christian, not ever struggle with sin, and hide behind a doctrine of grace to defend their right to wallow...and while declaring "nobody has the right to throw stones"?? Well, we see Paul taking action...as well as exhorting others to do so as well, was he wrong MBG?  So, we do see both sides to the picture,  and if you declare that God has no standards for Christian living, both written and Spiritually convicting, and think you can do whatever you please (and give hearty approval over others who also do).....you have a warped view of the Biblical Grace God gives.  In short, a genuine and total disregard of the respect of the "Grace" we've been given,  leads to a life "not struggling" with sin.  If you never struggle with sin,  then I'd say you'd have every right to question the validity of God's choice of influence in your life.  Wouldn't you agree?     Thanks for the response, Squ. My take on your intellectual philosophy is that you are teaching what i call the way to jump on the spiritual tread mill. The problem is we dont have the spiritual energy to stay on.  I will have to say that just watching you jump the theological tight rope is tiring me out a bit. Its wearisome to me that you are so quickly turning from the grace of God.  First if i depended upon my works as an evidence of the grace of God then the grace would no longer be grace. If it is tied to the train of works either as the car that pulls or the car that follows , it aint no grace car as we say in the south. Grace covers over sin. Sin is any lack of conformity to the law. Sin is not just an action but it is a thought. Every breath of my life is generated by His grace and will end in His grace as i lay my crowns at Jesus feet.  Grace is the back drop of failure. Because grace comes out of Gods bountiful love and faithfulness to us. So we do not have that kind of ongoing love. We love based upon false assumptions of ourselves and of others. We work as if we belonged to a task master and we are proud of our work as if we produced enough power to perform it on ourselves. Our problem is that we do not rest in the eternal love of God. This is not us having a sense of our self sufficiency as the problem, but it is in our restlessness until we find God. Love of self is finding the pride in ones work and attributing it to God. True affection for God is finding God all sufficient in the working out of our lives and praising Him alone for that kind of power. When we have relinquished the images of ourselves as being self sufficient, then we will have worshiped a true image of God.  So grace is the voice in salvation from God as Father of the assurance of the promises and the redeeming value of every inch of the history of the world. When we sin our Father comes to us with love and forgiveness, that is grace. When we fall, our Father comes to us as one who upholds us and that is grace. When we pray our Father comes to us with gifts that we could not fathom, that is grace. When we long for Him and His will for us, He teaches us by His Spirit and word apart from works that we do ,so  that we learn as we are loved and not as we are corrected in anger. And when we are not able to lift our heads, He sustains us by His power, that Power that is life sustaining. If we had really depressing thoughts He encourages us by a spiritual communication so that we can persevere in prayer. And as we learn to persevere in this way He adds His moral fiber to all of our lives. Now listen, within these paradigms i have described to you in this paragraph are the working power in the real world. These are the working of His power in us. As we dwell in this mindset we will be transfused with power from on high. We are trusting by faith and not by works. So there really is no trust in our working or our level of obedience. We simply rest in His love.