8033	Forums / Main Forum / Why Faith Is A Must	on: January 13, 2007, 09:00:16 AM
Quote Quote ...The desire precede choice. You cannot choose to desire, the will being the effect not the cause. I can argue my point if you want here. If i may ask, are you reasoning that the will is not the cause but is merely a result?  That is are you arguing: A. God is the cause of all desires and all choices we make B. Our desires and choices are the results of God's choices and not the cause of our own minds or spirits or souls C. We desire salvation and choose to trust Christ alone to save us Therefore D. God causes us to desire salvation and choose to trust Christ alone to save us and, returning to J69's original question, do you also hold this conclusion? E. Faith (or trust in Christ) is caused by God and not by our own minds or spirits or souls Thanks Soc, I like the way this thread is going. Here is what Joker wrote So when you hold someone accountable for their choices, you are basically trying to condition them to associate the choice with an existing desire. i.e. this choice brings pain (which you desire to minimize), that choice brings pleasure (which you desire to maximize), this other choice endangers self-preservation (which you desire to avoid). This is a very interesting statement filled with all kinds of different concepts that need to be talked about.  First i am not sure we really understand the reasons we desire one thing over another in the conditioned paradigm.At this point we are getting into the realm of good habits- bad habits. Habit forming is in the understanding of the object in this paradigm of conditioning. And in the conditioning paradigm what rises to the top as a principle is the moral element i.e. accountability. The question is not whether we are accountable but rather what we are most pleased with when we are going at  the desires. In the formation of our view of the objects in our understanding there are these past experience circumstances that come into play but these are not the core of why we choose one thing rather than another. These experiences are rather a part of why we view an object the way we view the object. Remember that in order for there to be an act of choice there must be a desire that precedes the choice. Now if a person is trying to rid himself of a bad habit the desire to rid himself is the ultimate end in many choices to achieve that end. I am speaking now of each body movement to achieve that end. So if he desires to stop smoking then that desire must be stronger than the desire to smoke or he will always be led by the stronger desire so that he is responsible. Remember that being in-between smoking and not smoking as the paradigm of free will, is not free will or liberty, that is no will at all- what is liberty is when his desire to stop smoking is greater than his desire to smoke if that is his goal. And we could say that he exercises his freedom if he desires to smoke seeing that he had a free choice, (choosing for himself). I do not doubt that there can be a conditioning that happens as a result of accountability. And that this can be a good thing. But the truth is that when he smokes, his desire to smoke always preceded his choice and vice -versa. this is the exercise of free will. If he has an accountability partner, then he desires to have an accountability partner. And so the chain goes. Its not so much getting the person to see his desire match his choice because choices evidence his desires. This is why the effects of sin goes much deeper than just outward behavior.